

&#9;1&#9;D MAY

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE: 28.08.96&#9;&#9;&#9;NAME: DANILE WILBERFORCE MAY

CASE: - UITENHAGE

DAY 3

__________________________________________________________

CHAIRPERSON: We are now going to call Danile Wilberforce 

May. Mr Sandi will lead you.

DANILE WILBERFORCE MAY: (sworn states)

MR SANDI: Mr May, when I look at your statement, your 

complaint is in a certain year, in the past years, a certain 

gentlemen whom you are going to mention later on, accused 

you in Port Elizabeth, that you were a police informer or 

sell out. Because of this allegation, by this person, a lot 

of things happened to you. Just before we get into that, Mr 

May, can we start with some of the important things.

Right now, you are no longer staying in Port ElizabEth, 

where are you staying, Mr May?

MR MAY: I am staying in Gauteng.

MR SANDI: Let's make it quick Mr May, and get into details 

of what you are going to talk about.

MR MAY: Thank you very much Mr Sandi. I am one of the 

people who were in the forefront. The people who formed the 

organisation called Zwide Residential Organisation. I was 

with Mr Tozamile Botha. The aim of this organisation was to 

fight that the then municipality, we mustn't pay for rates. 

By that time we didn't know that people are supposed to pay 

for water. We formed this organisation.

MR SANDI: What year was that?

MR MAY: That was in 1979.

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MR SANDI: Can you mention again, the name of this 

organisation

MR MAY: It was Zwide Residential Association. After this 

organisation was formed, we sat down as members of the 

executive committee, which among them where people like, 

Sipho Grootbom and Tolile Mbepe and others. We took a 

decision that the level of this organisation is not big 

enough.

MR SANDI: Couldn't you form a bigger organisation than that 

on?

MR MAY: There was another organisation for the people of 

Fort Tishas called the Fort Organisation, and another one 

which was called Gwasakeli for residents. With the leaders 

of these organisations, we formed another one which was 

called PEPCO. During this time, in Zwide, Mr Botha was 

president, and I was his secretary, when we formed this 

organisation. In all the meetings that we used to hold, 

they used to be big at that time because most of the people 

were mostly interested in this matter of rent and water. I 

was always in front as a secretary of this organisation and 

Tozamile Botha who was a spokesman, this was for Zwide 

Residential Association. I was a secretary and Tozamile 

Botha was a chairman.

&#9;He managed that in this organisation, there was a rent 

boycott which was discussed by these. I was for the rent 

boycott and Tozamile was against the rent boycott. The rent 

boycott was successful because I was always the MC of this 

organisation, and I managed. I was a leader of this rent 

boycott. The people were not paying rent in Zwide, the 

people were not paying for water, they were not paying for 

electricity.

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&#9;3&#9;D MAY

&#9;In September, I can't remember the date, whether it was 

1979, we formed this PEPCO because we wanted this thing to 

take place all over, not only in Zwide, but also in Port 

Elizabeth.

&#9;After forming PEPCO, since there was fault in Zwide, 

and Gwazakeli, we had to create Walmer and New Brighton 

townships. During a certain year, I think it was towards 

the end of 1980 or the beginning of 1981.

MR SANDI: Excuse me Mr May, without interrupting you, I 

want to confirm that we are together with these events. You 

are talking the formation of PEPCO. It is you and Mr 

Tozamile Botha who were executive members of PEPCO?

MR MAY: Thank you. Because of the fact that there was this 

rent boycott, which was taking place only in Zwide, I was no 

longer of the Zwide, but I was not in the top executive of 

PEPCO, so I remained being the secretary of this other 

association. Being a leader of this rent boycott which took 

place in 1980.

&#9;Towards the end of 1990 and the beginning of 1991, 

there was a residents meeting in Walmer, it was very hot.

During that time, PEPCO was popular in the Western Cape. 

During this meeting, we also had another meeting for Zwide 

residents. I was left being a leader of the Randville Court 

in Zwide and I was in charge of that meeting, which was held 

in Kaalnets Cinema on that particular evening. During that 

particular evening, the executive of Pepcore including 

Chume.

MR SANDI: Mr May, can we just talk about this meeting where 

you were accused.

MR MAY: I am coming bit by bit. On that particular 

meeting, people like Palochimoto, Zamile Botha from Walmer, 

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&#9;4&#9;D MAY

were arrested by the police. I was in Zwide, in a meeting 

there. The following day, I got the information that they 

were arrested. After that, as the people who formed this 

PEPCO, we took a decision that if they are arrested, we are 

still facing this matter of rent boycott, we rather start 

campaigning and fund raise. We fund raised in Zwide 

Residential Association.

MR SANDI: Excuse me Mr May, I would request that you stick 

to the incident that affected you as a person, as a person 

who is complaining. While you are still there, I am going 

to ask you questions.

&#9;In that meeting, where you say Mr Botha accused you, 

did he tell you the reason?

MR MAY: No, he didn't explain anything to me, he may have 

told the other people.

MR SANDI: Were you present at that meeting?

MR MAY: No, I was not in the first meeting, the one that 

was held in front of my house, with his colleague.

MR SANDI: Who was present?

MR MAY: My wife was in the house.

MR SANDI: These two meetings that you are referring to, do 

you refer to the meetings that you are inside the house, or 

just the meetings that were held in an open place just like 

this one?

MR MAY: When he came back from detention, he didn't come 

back to the meetings because they were banned. The meeting 

that he used to hold were the private meetings. On this 

particular night, he had a meeting with Fort workers that's 

when they decided to go to my place where they held the 

meeting in front of my house and he brought these 

accusations.

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&#9;5&#9;D MAY

MR SANDI: Were you present?

MR MAY: No, my wife was in the house, I came, and it was 

towards the end of the meeting.

MR SANDI: Were there other people who came to you and told 

you that you are accused by Mr Botha?

MR MAY: When I arrived at this meeting, as it was held at 

the front of my house, when I heard that they were talking 

about me, and I told them that I was present, I wanted to 

know what was happening, but there were people who told me 

that Botha is saying this and that about me. I wanted the 

meeting to continue, but the meeting was terminated.

MR SANDI: Did you ask Mr Botha what me meant by that?

MR MAY: About in the past 6 to 7 weeks I met him.

MR SANDI: I mean, during the time before he left the 

country, did you make any efforts that a person who said all 

these things about you in public, you meet that particular 

person and asked for an explanation?

MR MAY: During that very same week, I called a meeting, 

which was held in Countsnemmar, which was on a Sunday, as I 

wanted a full explanation.

MR SANDI: Did you get any explanation, what was the 

explanation?

MR MAY: The meeting was adjourned without him coming 

forward to explain the accusations, instead he repeated that 

I sold him out.

MR SANDI: You continue in your statement saying that Mr 

Botha left the country, going to another country. How did 

you get that information, did you read that information in 

the newspaper, or what?

MR MAY: I was staying in no.32 Mangai Street, and he was 

staying directly opposite my house.

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&#9;6&#9;D MAY

MR SANDI: You even said in your statement, because of these 

accusations, you decided to quit politics, you decided to be 

a business man. Is there any specific reason, or any 

motivation that lead you to do that?

MR MAY: During that time, the Pepcore was divided into two 

groups. It was destroyed, and there were two groups formed, 

there is Kosana and Mr Botha. I decided to step down, I was 

no longer working as a person who was working in Barclays 

Bank then, I discovered that if I was going to concentrate 

on politics, I was not going to gain anything. I decided to 

work for myself.

MR SANDI: Just before we go to the list of things that 

happened to you because of these accusations, I would like 

to ask a question. Are your comrades, the very comrades 

that you were with in that Pepcore Organisation, did you 

tell them the reasons for you to quit.

MR MAY: The majority of the Pepcore, with the majority of 

the Pepcore Founders, we stepped in.

MR SANDI: Can we go now to the details, where you say as a 

businessman, you started a business as a Paratics man in 

1984, and you got married. What incident took place in your 

life during the time you were a businessman because of these 

accusations in 1980.

MR MAY: The first one that I can talk about, on a certain 

day, I was on my way to a business meeting. I went past 

Motherwell. My business was in Motherwell, because I was 

evicted from my house. I was in front of Mr Klaasie's house 

who is a brother of Mr Golo, the owner of the Themba Labanto 

Supermarket. He was also a business partner, we were going 

to a meeting on that particular day. I went past his house.

MR SANDI: Do you refer to this particular day in 1985, 

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&#9;7&#9;D MAY

whereby the Themba Labanto Supermarket in Veeplaas, where 

you had a business.

MR MAY: Yes, I am referring to that particular day, but my 

business was in Motherwell Township, but I went to another 

businessman who was in Veeplaas because we were going to the 

same meeting.

MR SANDI: Let us talk about that day at Themba Labanto 

Supermarket. You say people came in, on that particular 

day, people who called themselves comrades, or the people 

that you believed were comrades, these people abducted you? 

What did they say, did they give you any reasons for this 

abduction?

MR MAY: They said that I sold out Mr Botha.

MR SANDI: Do you know these people who were doing this?

MR MAY: If I can go up and down, I can get one of them, but 

I don't know, nobody knows who were doing these things, but 

it is not very easy to point them, but they were comrades.

MR SANDI: You mentioned two gentlemen in your statement. 

You say that they helped you to escape. Can you briefly 

tell about how you knew the men?

MR MAY: If the two gentlemen that you are referring to are 

Mr Glass and Mr Aplay, I am not sure if you are talking 

about them, can you please confirm that?

MR SANDI: Yes, I wanted you to mention those names, thank 

you. ...(Tape ends)...

MR MAY: Because we were going to attend a meeting together. 

He is the one, that when these comrades abducted me, he 

forced that he was not going to be left behind. He followed 

with his car, behind my car, the one that was taken by these 

comrades. Mr Glass saw where these comrades took me.

MR SANDI: You said that this Mr Glass, is late now, what 

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&#9;8&#9;D MAY

was the cause of his death, is it because of that conflict?

MR MAY: No, he died in a car accident.

MR SANDI: Before we go further, I want to ask this 

question, you say that on this particular day, you survived 

the necklace, they were going to necklace you?

MR MAY: Yes, that is correct.

MR SANDI: Was there any evidence that they were going to 

necklace you? Did they have a tyre?

MR MAY: The petrol was drained from my car, and they were 

even going to use my own spare wheel, and my petrol.

MR SANDI: On the 31 December 1991, you say that among the 

businesses that you had, you say that you had a butchery, a 

club house?

MR MAY: Yes, that is correct.

MR SANDI: Before we talk about that, I would like to go 

back to that second gentleman, who helped you, besides Mr 

Aplay. Is that Mr Sitelo Aplay who was head of the Anti 

Crime?

MR MAY: Yes, that is correct.

MR SANDI: Yes, we can go on now. You say that in that Club 

House on the 31 December, can you briefly tell us what 

happened?

MR MAY: On the 31 December, about 7:30 in the evening, 

people fought in my tavern.

MR SANDI: Who were fighting?

MR MAY: It was me, and the other comrades who were about 9.

MR SANDI: Is there anything that they said concerning the 

accusations of Mr Botha?

MR MAY: There was nothing, there was no accusation which 

was connected to Mr Botha, besides the fact that they were 

saying that I am rich because of the money from the Boers. 

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&#9;9&#9;D MAY

Though I was telling them to go home, because I wanted to 

close the Tavern.

MR SANDI: Do you say that this attack is connected to this 

accusation of Mr Botha?

MR MAY: Yes, that is correct.

MR SANDI: Can you tell us the reason why you reconcile the 

two, whereas they said nothing concerning that accusation?

MR MAY: These people were comrades, who abducted me, who 

were going to necklace me. It was also the comrades who sat 

in my house forcefully. The fact that they said that I was 

rich because of the money from the Boers, as a person who 

was an informer, who sold Mr Botha, that is the reason why I 

connect the two.

MR SANDI: Do you say, on the 1 January 1992, when you went 

to your businesses, you were told that there were combis 

that are looking for you, the combis that belonged to the 

comrades, did they tell you who these comrades were?

MR MAY: No, I was not told. They just said to me that the 

comrades were looking for me, the comrades from Motherwell 

were looking for me.

MR SANDI: But because you heard that it was a combi that 

was looking for you, you decided to go and see a certain 

gentleman whom you refer as Mr Mondem Ntanga, who was the 

chairman of the Mother Well Civic Organisation. Did you 

talk with Mr Ntanga?

MR MAY: Before I could talk to Mr Ntanga, they arrived, the 

workers arrived before I could even open the business. When 

I opened the business, the comrades came and told me that 

they want me in there meeting but they didn't tell me the 

reason. I decided to go and meet the chairman of the branch 

of the Pepcore of Motherwell, which was Mr Ntanga then. I 

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&#9;10&#9;D MAY

wanted to know the agenda for that meeting.

MR SANDI: The investigation that Mr Ntanga said he was 

going to make concerning this. Was there anything that you 

gathered from that?

MR MAY: When I arrived there, before 10:00, I went to him 

as a person, who was a chairman because I wanted to know 

more about the agenda because he told me that he is not 

clear about the agenda, because it is the ASEP, and Azapo. 

He is not the one who called the meeting.

MR SANDI: Do you mean that you arrived in the meeting which 

had it's own matters that were to be discussed?

MR MAY: Yes, that is correct.

MR SANDI: By the way, you said what happened to your 

butchery?

MR MAY: In this meeting, I was requested to wait outside. 

They called me at about 11:30. At about 11:30 I was told 

that the decision has been taken that I must go and close 

down all my businesses in Motherwell and I must leave Mother 

Well before 12:00 that day.

MR SANDI: Who took over your butchery, the butcher that you 

complained about?

MR MAY: First of all, I closed my butchery because it was 

the 1 December 1992. I closed my butchery and everything 

was rotten, especially the food. I tried to consult people 

telephonically, I was writing to them, I was going to the 

people personally for help, but instead of getting a 

positive answer from these people, after three of four 

months, I discovered that someone has taken over by the name 

of Wiseman Kula, who was the co-chairman of that meeting 

where he requested that I close my butchery.

MR SANDI: In order for us to reach our conclusion, you said 

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&#9;11&#9;D MAY

because of this treatment, you left Port Elizabeth, you 

decided to go to Gauteng, are you a businessman there also?

MR MAY: No, I am just staying there. I am just sitting.

MR SANDI: Towards our conclusion, Mr May, what are your 

wishes, what is your request to the Commission?

MR MAY: My first wish is I want to get a full explanation 

and he must also tell the people of Port Elizabeth and 

Uitenhage about me and he mustn't say that even when I come, 

the people must not look at me and feel jealous, he must 

just explain the details of these accusations.

MR SANDI: Among other things, you say you request that the 

Commission must investigate about your butchery and your 

Club House, the one that you lost under those conditions. 

How can you regain them is that correct?

MR MAY: It is not only that, I want you to investigate, but 

I want this commission to get my butchery back from the ANC. 

I know that you don't have enough money, but ANC has got 

some means to bring back my house and by butchery and my 

family and to regain my dignity.

MR SANDI: Thank you very much Mr May, we are going to 

investigate, we are going to find the truth, you can now go 

back to your seat.

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